r/pcmasterrace GTX 1070 i5 6600K Jan 23 '23

It's nExT gEN Meme/Macro

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31.1k Upvotes

955 comments sorted by

5.9k

u/IRONgamer515515 Ryzen 7 5800X | RTX 4090 | 32GB RAM | 4K Jan 23 '23

As long as Doom Eternal exists every developer has bad optimization

3.4k

u/VillainofAgrabah Jan 23 '23

Doom Eternal’s optimization is some demonic sorcery shit. It’s insane how well optimized that game is.

2.2k

u/Ecstatic-Rutabaga850 Jan 23 '23

Doom Eternal is really a game that makes you happy, you just know the gaming industry is falling apart when a game included in a music album has better optimization than any current games

658

u/JustAnotherGamer421 W98 | Pentium III | GeForce 4 MX 440 | 386MB PC100 Jan 23 '23

too bad you can't buy the album separately. eh who am I kidding, it's a good time

1.0k

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23 edited Feb 05 '23

[deleted]

453

u/gnat_outta_hell R5 3600X, 32GB Corsair DDR4 3600 MHz, Strix RTX 2070 Jan 23 '23

Yup, makes me wish I could unbuy the game. It's a great game, but that's really awful behavior from a dev.

349

u/SilkOstrich PC Master Race Jan 23 '23

That whole situation left such a bad taste in my mouth that I genuinely have no desire to touch another doom game unless Marty and the other douchebags at iD/Bethesda are held to account. They had such a great thing going for them with eternal, but they just had to blow it all up because god forbid that you treat your contractors with basic decency…

276

u/EnduringConflict Jan 23 '23

I mean, everything else aside? The sheer pettiness of it is absolutely ridiculous.

They took an award on his behalf and put it up in their office. How pathetic is that?

"I'll take this award for another person's work and display it like it's mine, even though it has their name on it!"

How insecure do you have to be to do something at that level of pettiness?

31

u/OvenFearless Jan 23 '23

Wild to think that these are successful grown adults too which honestly can’t be that dumb even but it seems they simply lack human decency or empathy…

Perhaps something in their brain isn’t balanced right which makes them good for specific tasks but still… what an absurdly shitty behaviour.

14

u/Greenmanssky 3600 - 3060 Ti - 16GB DDR4 Jan 23 '23

The best way to end up in charge of a bunch of people is to demonstrate that you are not capable of leading a team in any way. Being a massive narricistic prick does help

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u/frozenrussian i7 2.8ghz 16gb RAM 420gb HD Jan 23 '23

And to think this is just a well publicized incident we've actually heard about! To think about how many other artists and devs get screwed over being contractors.

The guy responsible for for the great art direction in Half Life 2 was just a temp employee, and like him not a single person seen on the credits for that game still works at Valve. Below management, anyways, the fact that it's been 19ish years now notwithstanding.

99

u/SilkOstrich PC Master Race Jan 23 '23

That’s what terrifies me about the gaming industry. Mick Gordon was basically as popular and high profile a video game composer could possibly be and they still felt like they could treat him like trash and get away with it. What awful shit do they do to the other contractors or even their full time employees that don’t have any public following to stand up for them in any way? There’s the constant stories about extreme overworking and crunching being rampant in the industry and then there’s stories like Activision Blizzard and Mick Gordon which you would hope are one offs but unfortunately it seems that level of abuse has secretly been the norm for a while. In any event, gaming devs desperately need to start unionizing to fight back.

18

u/bpwoods97 Jan 23 '23

I've heard the trouble with trying to unionize is there are just too many people who are willing and qualified to be game devs. You'd need to organize an industry wide strike I feel.

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u/TheRapidScooter Jan 23 '23

Yeah after seeing the shit show that went on, I feel terrible for Mick. Such a talented artist. I hope he gets justice.

12

u/SoretomoOre Jan 23 '23

Has he sued them? From the summaries I read it sounds pretty clearly like a contract violation occurred, but it makes me a bit skeptical that it's actually that simple if he hasn't. I know he hired lawyers a while back so that doesn't seem to be a hangup

14

u/ClumsyFleshMannequin Specs/Imgur here Jan 23 '23

Hes not blackballed from the industry lol. He is involved in a project right now.

The stupid antics they did are real though.

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u/Lego_Hippo R3600/RTX2060/16GB Jan 23 '23

Every year, the doom album shows up on my Spotify wrapped as #1 most listened to album, because it’s hands down the best workout album.

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u/A_Wild_Striker Jan 23 '23

I'm convinced they used actual witchcraft to get that game running on the fucking SWITCH

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580

u/Tarcye Jan 23 '23

I'm convinced the devs made a deal with the devil or some shit for just how insanely optimized Eternal is.

That shit is fucking insane.

315

u/Vader2508 Jan 23 '23

Bethesda must be disappointed in Id

152

u/Berob501 Jan 23 '23

Damnit ID! Quit making us look bad here!

24

u/Lazureus i7 8700k, 32GB RAM, EVGA 2070 Super Jan 23 '23

If only Bethesda would utilize the tools and knoledge they have available... 76 might not have been a complete shitshow...

47

u/JerryWShields Jan 23 '23

Bethesda is Bethetic

32

u/cosmiccatapult Jan 23 '23

Almost scrolled past this masterpiece without noticing! Thank you kind netizen. XD

113

u/chambee Jan 23 '23

The devil’s name is John Carmack. He’s no longer there but under his guidance he made sure that everything coming out of iD was top notch. His work ethic still lives on.

70

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23 edited Feb 05 '23

[deleted]

60

u/Zeriell Jan 23 '23

The fact that such talent is treated as a problem rather than an asset really tells you all you need to know about modern corporations.

6

u/Yebii Ryzen 5 3600 | RTX 2060 (the one with that chip) Jan 23 '23

Can you tell more on this? What do you mean by that?

45

u/Zeriell Jan 23 '23

It's been too many years for me to remember all the details with ID and Bethesda to recount how it was there, but I remember plenty of disagreements between the business side and Carmack.

More recently, he wrote a post explaining why he left Facebook, and it came down to all his input being ignored by other Facebook management.

That may be justifiable when you're talking about just another dev; but when you hire a literal genius, who is famous for being a luminary of the industry... specifically to just waste his talent, well. It's typical of how suits think. Hire talent not to actually use it, but to just say: "Hey we hired the best! Isn't that cool! Now our share price increased. Do anything with the talent? lmao what a silly idea."

11

u/BootPastaHeroin Jan 23 '23

And to add onto this: It doesn't matter the backlash that they face because of it. These companies have such a far reach and control over... anything that they want to have control over... that it doesn't matter what happens to them, because it can all be swept under the rug or silenced.

We saw Facebook get chastised in the media for stealing and selling people's data a few years back, but they change their name and make a few good marketing decisions and they're still one of the biggest mega-conglomerates out there. They still steal every little bit of data they can, and why? Because if you go after a giant such as them, you're going to get crushed, and it doesn't matter if you've evidence or proof of wrong-doings, they are so big that it won't affect them in the slightest.

10

u/bcfradella Ryzen 3900x, RX 5700XT, 32GB DDR4 Jan 23 '23

He wrote a short letter about it when he left and expanded on it a bit here: https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1603931899810004994?t=alhkUu4b7eGGfo-VmJ5iQw&s=19

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23

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u/BicBoiSpyder 5950X • 6700XT • 32GB 3600MHz • 3440x1440 165Hz Jan 23 '23

I realize that 1080p isn't difficult to run, but I can get Doom Eternal to run on max settings at over 240fps at all times on my 6700XT/5950X system with no overclocking.

108

u/not_old_redditor Ryzen 7 5700X / ASUS Radeon 6900XT / 16GB DDR4-3600 Jan 23 '23

Bro I was doing a solid 1080p/40fps on a 760

42

u/BicBoiSpyder 5950X • 6700XT • 32GB 3600MHz • 3440x1440 165Hz Jan 23 '23

Wild

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u/mguyphotography Desktop R7 5800x, RTX 3070, 16GB Vengeance Pro Jan 23 '23

The PC I used old parts to build for my oldest son ran it a steady 150fps at 1080p, not that it matters much, since his monitors are only 60Hz. But that game is so insanely well optimized, it's mind blowing.

That was a first gen i7 920 and my old GTX 1070. (actually, I think the 9xx i7s were gen 1.5)

9

u/wsteelerfan7 Ryzen 5 5600x 16GB 3200MHz RAM RTX 3080 12GB Jan 23 '23

I did 4k60 in DOOM 2016 on an RX 480 at the time. It wasn't until I fired up other games that I realized that was the wrong monitor for me. It was my first build/gpu ever (had a 460 for like a month but sold it asap after having enough money to upgrade).

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u/TheKinkyGuy Jan 23 '23

Even the Devil is fan of the franchise

62

u/Tarcye Jan 23 '23

Satan playing Doom Eternal DLC: "AW SON OF A BITCH I HAVE TO KILL MYSELF??"

28

u/TheKinkyGuy Jan 23 '23

Also Satan: "BRING IT ON BITCH!"

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u/ShrekuLater PC Master Race Jan 23 '23

Im convinced the devs ARE the Devils and WE just made petty deals with them for the game. Lol but so true its actually sad that they are just completely behind these very important factors.

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u/mcnastytk PC Master Race price vs performance Jan 23 '23

Yea there's levels to this shit. Id/doom literally crated first person Shooters and made pc gaming as we know it now.

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u/p1zzaman81 i5-12600k GTX1080 Jan 23 '23

They made a deal with the devil. Devil said, I will make your engine run great, only if you put me in one of your games ok?

16

u/MistaBuldops Jan 23 '23

How does one assess a game’s optimization? Is there somewhere to read up on this stuff?

Never really thought about this, but once you mentioned DOOM I realized how well Eternal and 2016 run on pretty much anything and that its definitely praiseworthy.

13

u/By_your_command R9 3900x 32GB DDR 3600 CL16 RTX 3080FE Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

Basically how well it runs on a range of hardware is how you can tell how “well optimized” something is. DOOM Eternal runs well on everything from older PC’s to newer enthusiast builds. Compare that to something like, The Callisto Protocol or Gotham Knights which don’t run well on anything.

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u/MembershipThrowAway Ryzen 5 5600 4.65ghz 1440 144hz RTX 3070TUF 16gb 3200mhz Jan 23 '23

ID has been creating insane optimized games for their whole existence, I used to play Quake 3 competitively at 125fps in the early 2000's thanks to their optimization prowess. The physics in the game made 125fps optimal so that's what everyone used. We also played with 100+hz CRT monitors, when LED's came out it was a sad time in gaming

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u/Comeoffit321 Jan 23 '23

You just replied to someone with their exact sentiment, in different wording. You even used their description of the optimisation as "insane".

I'd ask why.. But honestly, there's no point.

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u/woooooohoooooo0 12100f/580 8g/16gb 3200 Jan 23 '23

Was playing DEternal on 2600, a GT 1030, and 8gb of ddr3 for a whole two years. I'm amazed that it could run, but what was more surprising is that I was getting a 30 fps average on lowest settings on 1600x900. I think the game was optimized by God himself.

77

u/Maxorus73 R5 2600/1660 ti/16GB 3000MHz Jan 23 '23

What's funny is that Digital Foundry found that, on consoles that they're both on, Doom Eternal actually runs even better than Doom 2016.

21

u/DasFroDo Jan 23 '23

I don't know if that's really it, but I assume that's mainly due to the removal of megatextures. I was a little sad when they announced that with Eternal. Made the levels look worse unfortunately.

7

u/Maxorus73 R5 2600/1660 ti/16GB 3000MHz Jan 23 '23

It was mostly due to the removal of megatextures, yep

18

u/nebnacnud Jan 23 '23

(I'm probably gonna catch shit for this opinion, but) honestly that checks out- 2016 is the better looking game

15

u/Zeriell Jan 23 '23

Yeah, I'd even argue it IS the better game, but that's a matter of taste, whether one likes the very unDoom-like arcade/minigame/puzzles direction they took things.

9

u/allofdarknessin1 PC Master Race i7-10700 | RTX 3080 Jan 23 '23

My unpopular opinion as well. I also feel Doom 2016 is the better game. Eternal had some excellent additions to combat and mobility but felt significantly time padded vs Doom 2016 feeling more natural with level and story progression. I love the Ray tracing features and HDR of Eternal though.

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u/OmegaLiar Jan 23 '23

I hate that MW2 (the real one) ran perfectly on my Xbox 360 and looked great, but Apex Legends runs like shot on my Xbox one X when if they spent even two weeks fixing their engine and optimizing their game it would run 60fps most of the time.

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u/Puffy_Ghost Jan 23 '23

The iD Tech7 engine is honestly just amazing for platformlevel based games. It's even open source so it's free to use, but most developers end up using Unreal 4 which is demonstrably worse in most situations (Unreal 5 supposedly fixes a lot of issues though) it's kinda crazy that such an amazing piece of open source tech doesn't get more use.

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u/JohnLockeN7 3070 FE | Ryzen 7 3700X Jan 23 '23

Lol it's because 90% if the textures are decals, which is fucking genius.

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u/cashibonite Jan 23 '23

I can't tell if this is satire or a genuine compliment to the devs all I know is it runs well on my midline laptop I actually haven't checked my frames in that game yet. It does boast a rather large file size

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u/19Jacoby98 Jan 23 '23

Vulkan FTW

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u/buff-equations Jan 23 '23

Getting almost 160fps on a 3060Ti with max settings max RT no DLSS was bliss (1080p), every other game I have to use DLSS or no rt or both

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u/StaysAwakeAllWeek PC Master Race Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

With DLSS on I get 200fps at 4k max no RT on a 3080. Its honestly insane. id has always been obsessed with optimisation. I hope they never change.

77

u/blaktronium PC Master Race Jan 23 '23

The entire 3d gaming industry rests on the shoulders of John Carmack inventing a new math algorithm to make quake run so well and showing people how to do 3d motion graphics cheap enough to do.

19

u/didnotsub Jan 23 '23

That’s a myth in the gaming community.

1: John Carmack didn’t make the inverse square root algorithm.

2: That algorithm ONLY works for quake because of the way it does some quirky bit shifts and pointer tricks, so it’s useless for the rest of the game industry.

3: It’s really only 4x faster than just doing the square root regularly, so nowdays it doesn’t matter. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1349542/john-carmacks-unusual-fast-inverse-square-root-quake-iii

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u/03Titanium Jan 23 '23

The same guy who was a catalyst for the VR industry? What a lad.

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u/ShwaBdudle RX6650xt, i5-11400, 16GB Jan 23 '23

Doom Eternal definitely has to be the most well optimized game I've ever played

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u/Stelus42 Jan 23 '23

Doom Eternal is amazing, MGS5 ran wonderfully on weak hardware, Horizon: Forbidden West running on a goddamn ps4 (10 year old console), f*ckin Half Life Alyx being one of the most stunningly realistic games I've ever seen IN VR ON A GTX1060. Its possible to make amazing games with good resources poured into optimization, and they're always remembered for it.

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u/touche112 i7 7700K, 32GB RAM, EVGA 960 GTX / EVGA Z270 FTW K Jan 23 '23

I was gonna say, they had MGS5 running on a PS3 lmao

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u/Stelus42 Jan 23 '23

I'm pretty sure I still had my budget AMD APU from like 2015 when I played that. Ran beautifully. Those are some of my earliest PC gaming memories :.)

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u/Psycko_90 Jan 23 '23

Half-life Alyx is legit sorcery for how well it runs on virtually anything.

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u/DivinePotatoe Ryzen 9 5900x | RTX 4070ti | 32GB DDR4 3600 Jan 23 '23

ID has always been the kings of that shit. It's the legacy of John Carmack.

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u/omeggga Jan 23 '23

Also warframe, the fact that game used to run on my old 2007 laptop is utterly astonishing.

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u/fnv_fan Jan 23 '23

Warframe's optimization is great. Frametimes not so much

11

u/RdPirate Steam ID Here Jan 23 '23

The thing supposedly runs fine even on a phone ffs. Can't wait till I can play WF while on the shitter.

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u/farcryer2 R7 5800X | GTX 1070ti | 32 GB RAM Jan 23 '23

It even runs on Switch. Current phones should have no issues if ported properly.

20

u/UnsettllingDwarf 3070 ti / 5600x / 32gb Ram Jan 23 '23

100+ fps on ultra everything on steam deck. No fsr. It’s insane.

34

u/Daxank i9-12900k/KFA2 RTX 4090/32GB 6200Mhz/011D XL Jan 23 '23

But since we're mentioning that game, is it really bad optimization or is it just an engine issue.

Maybe, id's engine's way better to work with than Unreal

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23

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u/baggyzed Jan 23 '23

Yeah, it's designed to do a lot of optimizations offline or on the CPU, way before it even reaches the GPU. Unreal is not bad either in this regard, but there aren't that many well known long-running games made with it. Doom and Quake are as old as time itself.

If you want to complain about poorly optimized games, point your fingers at Unity.

8

u/UntestableHypothesis Desktop Jan 23 '23

No no, devs are lazy. I know things.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23

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u/thrownawayzsss Jan 23 '23

The reality is that there's so many fucking moving parts that using doom as the golden standard for optimizing is likely dishonest to other games. Doom, at it's core, is an extremely basic game. However, games with a similar core that perform like shit, can be lambasted for lazy development that gets passed on to the end user.

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u/king_mo_of_metal420 Jan 23 '23

The absolute most literal of facts

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u/Unwashed_villager 5600X | 32GB | RTX 3070Ti | Jan 23 '23

also every open world crafting survival game in (forever) early access.

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u/Yomminator 13900KS/ PNY 4090 Jan 23 '23

Ark still runs like shit to this day even on good hardware

145

u/DeepStateofAffairs Jan 23 '23

Shocked me they had the gall to release a Switch version.

123

u/tapczan100 PC Master Race Jan 23 '23

The classic 140p experience.

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u/IDubsty 3060 12GB, Ryzen 5 5600, 16 GB Jan 23 '23

ARK runs like shit but doesn't have graphics of newer games. It's like the opposite of Doom Eternal

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u/OiItzAtlas 5700G | 3080 Jan 23 '23

They didn't even fix it they just decided to make ark 2 while adding paid DLC without fixing anything.

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u/INannoI Jan 23 '23

isn't it also like 200+ gigs?

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u/SpectralMagic GTX 2060s 8GB | i7-7700K 4.2Ghz  | 32GB | 960EVO M.2 256GB Jan 23 '23

Base game is only 90GB, but with old dlc and some necessary mods bring it to 270, newest dlc bring it up a LOT more. The optimization is non-existent, and the inconsistency of framerate in different areas can make it ridiculous to run especially when you factor in player based and hundreds of tribe dinos

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u/TearOfTheStar PC Master Race Jan 23 '23

Full version is ~430.

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u/Scary-Economy347 Jan 23 '23

what the fuck

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u/TearOfTheStar PC Master Race Jan 23 '23

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u/Thunderbridge i7-8700k | 32GB 3200 | RTX 3080 Jan 23 '23

Wow that must be the largest game ever made right?

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u/very_human Jan 23 '23

Ark unironically inspired me to finally pursue game development. The concept of the game was wonderful. Basically a dino Pokemon game. But the execution was so fucking horrible. It was such a buggy and often ugly mess especially the multiplayer. In a fit of rage I decided one day I would make a better game.

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u/lIlIlIIlIIIlIIIIIl Jan 23 '23

How's it going? Anything you can show off so far?

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u/Its_Matt_03 Jan 23 '23

I’ve played porn games with better optimization than ark

57

u/xxthehaxxerxx Jan 23 '23

Fucking rust

44

u/primarysectorof5 ryzen 5 5600, RTX 3060ti, 16gb ddr4 3600 Jan 23 '23

LMFAO yes, I just commented this. The graphics are also dogshit. I thought there was something wrong with my monitor

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u/xxthehaxxerxx Jan 23 '23

The biggest fps boost I've found is changing your audio to 4 speaker surround, somehow gave me 20 more fps

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u/Gonzobot Ryzen 5 3600|2070 Super Hybrid|32GB@3600MHZ|Doc__Gonzo Jan 23 '23

...but that's very stupid

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u/PleasantAdvertising Jan 23 '23

Welcome to rust

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u/DarkxGladiator Jan 23 '23

Subnautica and Raft both left EA. The system gets a lot of bad rep, but there are some genuinely good ones out of it.

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u/ThatFeel_IKnowIt PC Master Race Jan 23 '23

Dyson sphere program is still in EA but might as well be on 2.0 at this point. There is SO much content. Easily enough to be considered done.

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u/Unwashed_villager 5600X | 32GB | RTX 3070Ti | Jan 23 '23

Most EA games just have put the magical 1.0 version number on the main menu and they have consider it as full release. I played many of this type of games and the story is almost always the same:

  • game runs like shit even on high end systems in early access. No wonder, they are focusing on gameplay, no time for optimizations!
  • few years later, game still in early access, still runs like shit even the high end systems of that year despite the graphics haven't changed. But the release is close, it will get a new engine if it gets released!
  • game gets released, performance still like shit, or even worse because of the "improved" graphics. Developer sells the title to some big studio for a last drop of profit, they cannot be reached on any platform. End of story.

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u/achilleasa R5 3600X - RX 5700 XT Jan 23 '23

Then there's factorio that was so stable and optimized during EA that 1.0 was basically just a small content drop lmao

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u/ThatFeel_IKnowIt PC Master Race Jan 23 '23

I feel that way about dyson sphere program too. It's still in early access but it might as well be on 2.0 at this point. It is easily a full game.

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u/Helmic GTX 1070 | Ryzen 7 5800x @ 4.850 GHz Jan 23 '23

Tech debt. For some games, you can optimize later because you're part of a large experienced studio that has particular practices they use to make sure optimizations are easy to implement.

EA games, meanwhile, tend to have lots of CPU intensive systems that keep being layered on top of one another. You can't put off optimization here because you're creating a pile of spaghetti, you're going to forget how shit works, you don't have good practices that make it so you can alter how important classes and functions work easily without introducing new bugs.

Don't build up tech debt. You can't just say you're going to optimize later, you have to actually lay the groundwork for those optimizations to happen.

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u/primarysectorof5 ryzen 5 5600, RTX 3060ti, 16gb ddr4 3600 Jan 23 '23

Rust, the graphics are dogshit, and needs dlss with 32gb of ram

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u/Spaciax Ryzen 5 5600G | GTX 1660S | 16GB DDR4 Jan 23 '23

rust requirements be like:

gtx 770

intel pentium you found in the dump

256GB of DDR8 RAM

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u/OP_MIGHT_BE_A_FAG Jan 23 '23

Don't forget an m.2 ssd otherwise you're waiting a solid 15 minutes for the map to load assets from the disk.

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u/B33-FY Jan 23 '23

This is the real danger of early access IMO. Yeah, you can waste money on a game that turns out to have a flawed concept or gets abandoned during development. That sucks, but at least you KNOW the game is shit and you stop wasting your time. What's more frustrating is that a lot of these games get trapped in what would normally be like 80% of the way to being finished. Normally the devs would create the game, then before release spend time trying to optimize it. With early access, shit just keeps getting added, so even if it "leaves" early access with a major update, it's just more feautures the devs promised, because that's what people will pay attention to. It just seems like they never have the "stop adding major stuff and polish what is already there" phase of development. Games like Mount and Blade 2 come to mind.

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u/Calbone607 Ryzen 7 5800x3D | 4070ti | 32GB Jan 23 '23

7 days to die. No difference playing on my 2080 super vs 3090

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u/Bobthemime Too Broke for shit Jan 23 '23

or as my friend coined it after it was added to Xbox gamepass:

7 Days To Load.

he mas an m.2 ssd just for games, and 7 days took as long as me on a HDD

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u/050607 Jan 23 '23

To be fair, the developers of that game are just clueless when it comes to even planning what the game is about, forget optimizing that pile of crap.

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u/BubsyFanboy Geforce 9600GT 512MB,Pentium G4400,4GB DDR3,1050p 16:10 Jan 23 '23

Let's hope this time a toothbrush isn't the heaviest game asset.

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u/Nate2247 Jan 23 '23

Context?

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u/blank_slate_000 Jan 23 '23

In the game Yandere Simulator, there was a toothbrush asset that would be loaded outside of the level which had a ridiculous amount of polygons.

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u/Nate2247 Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

Lmao, wtf. That reminds me of something I read about FF14:

“Yoshida pointed to three main reasons for Final Fantasy 14's failure in that first form. First, the team had an "unhealthy obsession with graphical quality." In a series of videos comparing the original version of Final Fantasy 14 to A Realm Reborn, he showed that the core game may have looked slightly better, but its areas were also empty and it took up a lot of processing power.

For a specific example, Yoshida showed a screenshot of a flowerpot outside of an inn in the first form of Final Fantasy 14. He called it "the loveliest flowerpot in an MMO," but then revealed its heavy cost: That single flowerpot contained over 1,000 polygons and 150 lines of shader code, meaning it took up as many resources as a single player character.”

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u/bitches_love_pooh Jan 23 '23

The best part of this is this originally launched on PS3 with these problems

109

u/UglyInThMorning Desktop Jan 23 '23

Considering the voodoo involved with getting things to run on the PS3, I wonder if it running on PS3 is because of bizarre shit like this instead of in spite of it.

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u/TrueHawk91 i5 8600k, RTX 2080, 32gb RAM Jan 23 '23

The PS3 was the equivalent of a handgun that shots artillery rounds, plenty of power but useless when trying to put it into practice.

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u/Zwischenzug32 Jan 23 '23

More like artillery that shoots up to 7 tiny shells at once

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u/shandow0 Radeon 7790/i5-3570k Jan 23 '23

No it didn't. They announced it, but they never got around to releasing a ps3 version of 1.0.

A realm reborn (and even heavensward) was released on ps3 though. With smaller zones and less fancy flowerpots.

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u/uncharted_bread Jan 23 '23

Yeah, Yandere simulator is Mordor of optimization

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u/AcceptablePackage294 i7 12700F - RTX 3060ti - 16gb 3200Mhz Jan 23 '23

YanDev vs ID Software would be the ultimate final battle of optimization.

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u/NameThatsIt Jan 23 '23

hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby

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u/DarkWolf2017 Ryzen 7 5700X Radeon RX 6600 XT Jan 23 '23

Wasn't there also the thing where the source code Unity files leaked and people realized that he used this massive if/else if/else statement to check every student that was still alive by ID? And the worst part is that a later leak showed that he rewrote it as a more efficient switch statement to prove that he knew how to do it, but commented it out leaving the horribly inefficient if/else if/else statement method.

For clarification, an if/else statement has to check each condition 1 by 1, while a switch will jump straight to the true case, iirc. For this reason, in a situation like in Yandere Simulator where it's checking every single npc, a switch is faster.

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u/wareagle3000 AMD Ryzen 7 5800x, 16GB, Nvidia 3070 Jan 23 '23

Someone then played around with the idea and prototyped a "efficient Yand Sim" where the student routing system used the built in Unity pathfinding tool to get rid of that headache of spaghetti code. Another big problem was that a lot of the assets used in the game are just bought Unity assets that have unoptimized sizes for what they offer for scenery.

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u/Tannerted2 2060, 2600x Jan 23 '23

There was also another game called lovesick (i think it was renamed to love letter: [something something] and he remade yandere sim thst ran perfectly fine in like 2 weeks. Yanderedev was being payed 2.5k-3.5k a month for years at the time... oh wait he bought 3 switches to have different animal crossing worlds and a sex doll with pateron money lmao

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u/teejay_the_exhausted Jan 24 '23

And all of these 'reimaginings' (let's be honest, improvements) of Yansim got shut down because Yandev basically encourages his fans to harrass the devs. Oh yeah there was that one time he gave a dev (I think they made Lovesick?) a backhanded threat that he would end himself if the game wasn't removed.

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u/Tannerted2 2060, 2600x Jan 23 '23

He literally showed it on his programming livestreams from what i remember. And yeah, iirc at one point it was running 30000 if else statements every frame or smth ludicrous like that.

There are also far more issues than that and the aformentioned model issues. For example, whenever anyone calls him out on bad optimisation he tells them to stop playing the game on a shit laptop, yet exclusively plays it in 720p (the game also has a bunch of issues in 1080p because he doesnt give a fuck)

That and hes a creep too! Hes sold schoolgirl body pillows and advocated for a "teenage sex test/license". Disgusting guy...

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u/schelmo Jan 23 '23

Honestly I'd expect the compiler to optimized a ton of if statements to the same thing as the switch statement. Did they ever prove that there was a performance difference between the two?

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u/dave_the_n00b Jan 23 '23

Ah, I see you are a man of culture, as well!

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u/G1ntok1_Sakata Jan 23 '23

Lol, at least it's pretty unlikely this game is made by scummy people who resort to stealing assets due to lack of knowledge in making assets.

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u/Khomuna Ryzen 5 5600X | RX 6700 XT | 32GB 3200MHz Jan 23 '23

That's why serious hardware reviewers always do a DLSS on and off comparison. You should never buy a game that relies entirely on DLSS to be playable. DLSS/RT are things to improve the experience, not something to depend on.

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u/not_a_gay_stereotype Jan 23 '23

Battlefield V uses raytracing and provides way better reflections on mud and water and barely cost anything performance wise. Some games add raytracing but it's so unnoticeable and drops your FPS in half lol.

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u/Khomuna Ryzen 5 5600X | RX 6700 XT | 32GB 3200MHz Jan 23 '23

barely cost anything performance wise

Only if you're running it now after years of patches or if you had an RTX 2080 Ti back in the day. I bought a RTX 2060 specifically for this game, it was unplayable for me with RT on in 2018 even with DLSS, heavy stutters and half the frames.

The only game I played where Ray Tracing was worth using was Control, and that's because the game was built around it, performance also sucked, but since it was singleplayer it didn't hurt as much.

I wanted to use RT in Cyberpunk, but the game already runs poorly enough without it.

games add raytracing but it's so unnoticeable and drops your FPS in half

Ray Traced shadows in CoDMW, it looks barely better than the normal shadows, not worth it at all, especially on a fast paced shooter, more fps is always the better option.

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u/TrueHawk91 i5 8600k, RTX 2080, 32gb RAM Jan 23 '23

I remember playing the beta after getting my 2080 and having major performance issues with RT and without, can now comfortably get 90+ fps without raytracing and 50+ with but man was the 20 series a con if you bought for RT

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u/CJM_cola_cole PC Master Race Jan 23 '23

I've always considered DLSS/FSR as a last resort "my gpu is aging and can't run games at my monitor resolution "

Can theoretically extend the lifespan of your GPU for a few years assuming it doesn't just burn out

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u/Mandoart-Studios ryzen 5 5600G | 32GB DDR4 | 6700TX | Valve index Jan 23 '23

Not lazy devs, it's overworked, underpaid devs with super short target times.

You don't need the best engnieers, but enough time for them to make the best product

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u/sirtet_moob Jan 23 '23

Greedy CEOs!

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u/Nihil_Cow 9900K / 3080 Ti Jan 23 '23

Public companies are all about making share holders happy

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u/Proxnite Jan 23 '23

If you aren’t having consistent growth, you must be failing as a company. The infinite growth model is becoming way too unsustainable.

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u/nictheman123 Jan 23 '23

becoming ... unsustainable

It has always been unsustainable. Since the beginning. It was never sustainable, scarcity is literally the founding principle of economics. You're never going to have unlimited growth with limited resources.

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u/omeggga Jan 23 '23

Ah, the Noctua method! ^^

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u/Jaiden051 Desktop Jan 23 '23

Noctua has made normal engineers Godly engineers

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u/johnfreemansbrother 11 \ 7700X \ 6800 XT \ IBM Model M keyboard Jan 23 '23

Context, please?

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u/Bolivian_Spy Jan 23 '23

Noctua is infamous for extremely slow development timelines. Something like taking 4 years to perfect the chemistry behind literally just adding some color options to their fans, to make sure they don't fade over time or deviate at all from the tight tolerances they require. So basically they rarely release new products but are generally regarded as excellently engineered.

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u/Dr-Rjinswand 5900x | RTX 3080 | 42" LG C1 Jan 23 '23

There’s more to it than that. Noctua actually openly state that their engineers aren’t “the best”, they just give them enough time and resources to do their jobs. That’s why their products are good.

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u/Tombenator PC Master Race RTX3060 Ti, i5 10600K, 16GB DDR4 Jan 23 '23

And those fans are so fucking good that people don't even care they're brown.

You know its good when it sells even in brown.

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u/Krutonium R7 1800X, 5600 XT, GTX 750 Ti, RTX 3070, 32GB 2800Mhz DDR4 Jan 23 '23

I love that Linus (LTT) has taken that to heart.

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u/aesthesia1 Jan 23 '23

Another W for noctua. My friends laughed at my ugly fans but They outlived all the shit my friends had.

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u/kenman884 R7 3800x | 32GB DDR4 | RTX 3070 FE Jan 23 '23

This is the way, especially when there’s no real dates to hit.

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u/headhonchospoof Jan 23 '23

Have had two noctua’s in my pc for almost 8 years now (knock on wood) still working perfectly and silently

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u/WaiDruid Jan 23 '23

I'm still baffled how my Noctua cost less than my friends water cooler and almost better performance out of it. It's actual magic I swear

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u/johnfreemansbrother 11 \ 7700X \ 6800 XT \ IBM Model M keyboard Jan 23 '23

Gotcha, thanks!

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u/newbrevity 11700k, RTX3070ti, 32gb ddr4, SN850 nvme Jan 23 '23

It's all about shareholders and executives trying to push out games as soon as theyre barely functional rather than hiving devs time to optimize and polish.

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u/mythrilcrafter Ryzen 5950X || Gigabyte 4080 AERO Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

Given things like CDPR lying to investors about the health of development, Bioware actively rejecting EA's extraneous attempts to help get Anthem out of development hell, and 7th gen era directors/producers trying to use their ego to develop games and crashing their companies in the process (Cliff Blezinski being the best example); I've become convinced that problematic management and too many middle men is becoming the much bigger problem.

Mass Effect Andromeda is also a great example since the game was so bad that it actually rendered the Mass Effect IP useless other than remaking the old games. If I was an EA stock holder, I'd be furious that management bungled the game so hard that a perfectly good asset can no longer be used.


Let's also not forget the guy who bought a significant speaking share of Nintendo, asked the execs to greenlight more F-Zero games, and they replied with a flat faced "No", then he bought and even bigger share in the company, asked again, and they still said no.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23

Unfortunately this seems to be the norm across all IT. Dumbass upper executives/managers who have no understanding of what goes on at the lowest levels yet get to decide what goes on at the lowest levels

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u/NachoManAndyDavidge Jan 23 '23

What game is requiring a 40 series?

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u/UnseenGamer182 LibreWolf Enjoyer Jan 23 '23

Forspoken

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u/RedHoodedDuke ryzen 7 5800x rx 6800xt 32gb ddr4 Jan 23 '23

To be fair it’s just asking for 16gb of vram as it suggest an rx 6800 xt for ultra 4K.

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u/malcolm_miller 5800x3d | AMD 6900XT | 32gb 3600 Jan 23 '23

It's weird as hell, though, they they recommend a 6700xt for 1440/30 and a 6800xt for 4k/60. In what logical line of thinking does this make any sense?

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u/RedHoodedDuke ryzen 7 5800x rx 6800xt 32gb ddr4 Jan 23 '23

Oh wow, yeah that is weird. Doesn’t help that they have an error on the ryzen 5 5800x.

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u/3lit_ Jan 23 '23

Which is dumb

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u/RedHoodedDuke ryzen 7 5800x rx 6800xt 32gb ddr4 Jan 23 '23

In all fairness this is at 4K ultra settings. I’m sure you can enable upscaling

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '23

I think we first should ask who really has a 4k high refresh rate monitor, because none of these people complaining don't have the hardware.

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u/Ekank Desktop Jan 23 '23

It baffles me that people think the games are bad because of "lazy devs" do people think devs wake up at noon, work for 2~3 hours and go browse reddit or smt? The problem is that not even optimization masters can develop a game and optimize it in a shot period of time with multiple crunches.

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u/Memetron69000 Jan 23 '23

it's mainly incompetent management

there's nothing more dangerous than diligent incompetence

"wHy cAn'T yOu deLivEr a bAbY iN 1 mOnTh wItH 9 dOcTorS?" is the gist of it

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u/mythrilcrafter Ryzen 5950X || Gigabyte 4080 AERO Jan 23 '23

I'd argue that's one of the biggest issues of them all and the least pointed out despite how incredibly common it is.

Anthem had no vision or direction other than "make it like the E3 trailer", so the game spent years of its development time just stuck in meetings of managers arguing over what they wanted the game to be and what they wanted in the game, rather than organizing they resources for the ground zero artists, programmers, and designers to do their jobs. Then when EA started trying to send extra new resources and personnel to help pull Anthem out of development hell, the Bioware managers stonewalled EA and rejected all the help they were given (just to later shift the blame on EA because they know the public has a negative opinion on the company and is an easy scape goat for shifting blame).

Respawn knew that Titanfall 2 wouldn't be able to compete with CoD and Battlefield, yet they still chose to release the game along side, despite EA's warnings not to do that.

Cyberpunk was horrendously managed, so much so that the managers actively lied to investors and the public about the state/health of development.


Conversely, Quantic Dream's management knows that David Cage is a wacko who has good ideas but operates development like a blind man drives a race car, so they are continuously putting more talent between his vision and writing and the actual ground zero design and development.

That's also why Square Enix is allows Naoki Yoshida so much freedom in leading Final Fantasy 14's development, because they know that he has his head on straight and can keep things running smoothly (which they also take advantage of, but that's a different discussion all together).

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u/Izithel Ryzen 7 5800X | RTX 3070 ZOTAC | 32GB@3200Mhz | B550 ROG STRIX Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

Anthem had no vision or direction other than "make it like the E3 trailer",

It was even worse, that E3 trailer only came out in June 2017, but the game had been in production since at least 2014, with pre-production starting even earlier in 2012.

At least 3 years of development time was wasted developing systems, prototyping gameplay, creating assets, without any clear vision or direction.
Literally nobody at the studio had a clear idea what they were even making for 3+ years!

And the only reason that E3 Trailer existed is because the Management at EA demanded to actually see some progress for a project they had been pumping money in with nothing to show for it and were threatening to scrap it, and was hastily thrown together with what bioware had.

While official developed over a period of 5+ years, in reality most of it was developed in those 20 months between the E3 trailer and the final release.

And what I find funny is that Bioware's other studio which developed Andromeda had suffered trough many of the same lack of leadership, vision, and direction, problems during development just a few years earlier.

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u/ashishvp MSI GTX 1080 i7 7700k Jan 23 '23

Hey man, I'm a dev and that's EXACTLY what I do, thank you very much.

I don't work in the VG industry tho. Fuck that shit

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u/Khomuna Ryzen 5 5600X | RX 6700 XT | 32GB 3200MHz Jan 23 '23

People use the word "devs" as a catch-all term for the whole studio + publisher combo, not necessarily the shop floor actual developers. But yeah, it's a bit shitty because sounds like they're blaming the people that work 12h a day to achieve unreasonable deadlines.

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u/i1u5 Jan 23 '23

Dev refers to the whole studio, for example Ubisoft can be referred to as a game developer.

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u/Master_Nerd Ryzen 5 3600, RX 5700 xt Jan 23 '23

It's usually not lazy devs, but management who are the real problems. The actual people developing the game are often overworked and put in extreme crunchtime

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u/Haltheleon RTX 3090 | Ryzen 7 3700x | 32 GB 3600 MHz DDR4 Jan 23 '23

It's the same problem in nearly every industry. People blame the ground-level employees for being lazy when it's the execs making cost-cutting decisions that lead to worse products.

Everyone wants to take pride in their work, but it's difficult when that work is being actively sabatoged by chronic understaffing, poor quality materials, and time crunches to ensure short-term record profits.

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u/cfig99 Jan 23 '23

“Lazy devs”

You misspelled “greedy CEOs”

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u/Shawn_NYC Jan 23 '23

"you either need a $500 console or a $2,000 graphics card to run our game"

AAA devs and Nvidia pricing are conspiring to strangle PC gaming for a generation.

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u/TrueHawk91 i5 8600k, RTX 2080, 32gb RAM Jan 23 '23

"you either need a $500 console or a $2,000 graphics card to run our game"

After being given a series S I can imagine that $400-500 spent on a console is going to result in sub 1080p upscaled + 30fps limit or uncapped framerate with major dips. God knows how they get RT on these things

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u/AkiyoSSJ Jan 23 '23

The thing is Series S is a console worth at max 200$(even less as second hand), for that much you get a console capable of RT(yea, still not recommended) and with better specs than a PS4 Pro.

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u/DiscombobulatedLeg79 Jan 23 '23

Series s has the best price to performance of all time love that console

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u/AkiyoSSJ Jan 23 '23

Without a doubt, more like best ever next gen console at price+performance, most people I know are replacing their low-mid PC/laptop for Series S if they do only light gaming, while keeping a pretty low/potato PC/laptop for working and other stuffs.

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u/Rigman- Jan 23 '23

I hate this meme because it's typically not "Lazy Devs" but management applying pressure to push the game out the door even if it's not fully cooked.

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u/dermitdenhaarentanzt Jan 23 '23

So that meme is about forspoken right? Just saw it on steam and i have one question

Why the fuck does it cost 80 fucking euros??

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u/Raestloz 5600X/6700XT/1440p :doge: Jan 23 '23

Same reason Samurai Maiden costs $60 while Senran Kagura is $30

BECAUSE THEY WANT MONEY

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u/TheMightyThimble Jan 23 '23

starcitizen

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u/trekxtrider 5800x3D/6900 XTXHC/16GB/EKWB 480x60mm-360x45mm/Enthoo719/ Jan 23 '23

This so much, some rando on here told me to just buy a 4090 if I want playable framerates, what an idiot.

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u/Vulcanicloud Jan 23 '23

The devs aren't lazy. It's the worthless higher ups not giving devs enough time to actually make a decently made game, and rushing it out cause money is all that matters to them.

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u/ArtyMann Jan 23 '23

its because you need a powerful computer to deal with all that horrible unoptimized code

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u/Katana_sized_banana 5900x, 3080, 32gb ddr4 TZN Jan 23 '23

Oh and $70 (80€) now please. The development was so hard and oh the costs, can you believe it?

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u/Waterprop Desktop Jan 23 '23 edited Jan 23 '23

"Lazy devs"? Yeah, no.

We shouldn't blame devs like this. They absolutely KNOW how the game works and how it performs. They have the tools to see it. They most likely just don't have enough time and resource to optimize it better. It's the management that decides to publish games unfinished, cyberpunk anyone?

As a dev (not games but I do use game engines), optimization is not easy. It's very vast and complicated topic.

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u/MightBeNozza Jan 23 '23

You lost me at “Lazy devs”

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u/nate0515 i7-7700K | Strix 1080 | Strix Z270E Jan 23 '23

Very rarely is it "lazy devs". It's more often greedy leadership who give too little time and too little funding to make the game properly. In my honest opinion, "gamers" share a part of the blame as well. People complain about unoptimized/unfinished games BUT also complain about delays and pushed release dates. See: Cyberpunk and about a million other titles. If people keep pre-ordering and then getting mad when the release date is pushed back, we will keep receiving unfinished and unoptimized games. Consumers need to give publishers a reason to do better.

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u/ShowtimerHD Ascending Peasant Jan 23 '23

Just downloaded Dead Space 1/2/3. Next gen is great 🤓

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u/summonsays Jan 23 '23

I like blaming devs as much as the next guy, but as a software developer it's usually more a management decision than it is the developers. "We'll do an optimization pass at the end" and then "Well we ran out of time implementing the cash shop everyone loves, better ship it as is". (Or whatever bells and whistles management demands is MVP but wasn't ever included in development time projections.)

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u/buttsu556 Jan 23 '23

not dlss 3 but darktide is really good example of this. with a 9700k and 1080 ti i had to enable fsr 2.0 to get 70-80 fps at medium settings.

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