r/worldnews Dec 01 '22 Helpful 1 Wholesome 1 All-Seeing Upvote 1 hehehehe 1

Russia Bans Public Discussions of Army Strategy, Troop Morale, Mobilization Russia/Ukraine

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/12/01/russia-bans-public-discussions-of-army-strategy-troop-morale-mobilization-a79555
45.5k Upvotes

1.8k comments sorted by

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u/IRatherChangeMyName Dec 01 '22

Such a boost to the morale

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u/imapassenger1 Dec 01 '22

"A series of glorious defeats against an enemy advancing in utter disarray."

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u/CaptainMarsupial Dec 01 '22

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

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u/_bvb09 Dec 01 '22

And if they don't? Straight to jail!

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u/BobbyFingerGuns Dec 01 '22

The first two rules of morale club...

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u/baconography Dec 01 '22

"Thumbs up, sinking ship"

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u/Brokenspokes68 Dec 01 '22 Silver

Nothing says things are going well in your special military operation than banning any discussion of it.

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u/vrenak Dec 01 '22

It's a rerun of the fall of the 3rd reich, wish Putin would fast forward to the part where he commits suicide.

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u/Thoughtful_Tortoise Dec 01 '22

Hitler didn't have nukes, got to wonder what would have happened if he had.

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u/traboulidon Dec 01 '22

I guess the nukes back then were poison gas attacks on the field, used in ww1. In ww2 all armies knew not to use it even the germans.

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u/unicynicist Dec 01 '22

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u/thatirishguy0 Dec 01 '22

Did a paper on this entire subject in college. Pretty cool history lesson tbh. All of his experiences explain why he was a total whack job.

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u/unicynicist Dec 01 '22

Towards the end he was a full on meth addict. An unstable genocidal meth addict is never a good thing.

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u/thekid1420 Dec 01 '22

Ya but when did he invent the microphone and highways?

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u/SlightlySychotic Dec 01 '22

I think he was also in the late stages of syphilis but I’m not sure if that is propaganda.

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u/Kendertas Dec 01 '22

Another reason is that the German army wasn't actually that mechanized. They still relied heavily on horse drawn logistics. And well there are gas mask for horses, its difficult to get them to move once they are on.

Conversely the allies, especially American forces where nearly completely motorized. So after any initial suprise the allies would have handed out gas masks, and kept on moving well the German army would grind to a halt.

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u/Apprehensive-Ad8987 Dec 01 '22

There were more horses used in WWII than in WW1.

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u/Initial_Cellist9240 Dec 01 '22

On the US side too, specifically in the pacific where horses and mules were better suited towards fighting through the jungle than jeeps. Only story I got from my poppop (Italian who fled to the US to avoid Mussolini, joined the US army and ended up fighting through mainland Asia) was that at one point they were so low on supplies they ate their horses.

Horse meat is actually somewhat popular in Italian cuisine in some areas, but needless to say he said he couldn’t stomach it after that incident

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u/AnukkinEarthwalker Dec 01 '22

Kinda weird how most films about this war make it seem like germans had more tanks than anyone.. never really thought about it till seeing this.

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u/Kendertas Dec 01 '22

Yeah there is this weird phenomenon where a lot of nazi propaganda survives till this day. The German army being this extremely mechanized force is one. Also that their equipment was vastly more technologically developed. In the real world their wonder tanks/planes had a ton of issues.

Another big one was that the USSR just used mindless human wave tactics throughout the whole war. Sure initially that happened but by the end of the war the Soviets where one of if not the best equipped, integrated and led armies in the world. Operation Bagration(Soviet counter invasion into Belarus/Poland) shattered the central eastern German army and was brilliantly conceived/executed. Its understandable though why this particular myth survived since the cold war started almost immediately

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u/MRoad Dec 01 '22

In the real world their wonder tanks/planes had a ton of issues.

I've seen it described as allied veterans remember the time they had to face a Tiger on the field, but they'll never know about all the times they broke down miles behind the frontline, while Shermans were basically always available.

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u/Kendertas Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 02 '22

Its also survivor(edit) bias. The Sherman had big easy to get out of crew hatches, and good ammunition storage. So if you got hit you where much more likely to be able to escape and tell the tale of how much shermans "suck". Tanks such as the T-34 on the otherhand where extremely difficult to get out of in a emergency.

Interestingly the Sherman has a argument for the best tank in ww2 when you factor in what it was designed for. US armored doctrine envisioned specialized antitank units going after German armor, well the Sherman was designed as a infantry support tank. It was never intended to directly fight German armor. So when used in that role it excelled and like you say they where cheap enough to produce that there never was a shortage. In fact the amount of fuel able to be delivered to the front was more of a limiting factor for American armor then the actual amount of tanks avaliable.

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u/Justame13 Dec 01 '22

The Germans actually demechanized in early 1942 because they were able to mobilize two extra draftee classes early (they did it by birth year) to replace the losses in the USSR but lacked the industrial capacity to replace trucks and tanks.

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u/LivedOnce Dec 01 '22

Does your autocorrect replace "while" with "well"?

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u/Idiot_Savant_Tinker Dec 01 '22

Just every once in a well.

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u/Aoloach Dec 01 '22

Might've been dictated instead of written.

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u/pleasegetoffmycase Dec 01 '22

Poison attacks had relatively few deaths after their first couple uses because everybody was equipped and trained with gas masks.

Nukes don’t really have a counter once detonated.

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u/Vinlandien Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

Nukes don’t really have a counter once detonated.

The counter to nukes is nukes. If russia were to use nukes, nukes would be used against russia.

Those weapons are so incredibly horrifically terrible, that nobody fucks around with them. The only defense against them is to absolutely obliterate the opponent with nukes, to prevent more nukes.

Nobody wins.

The analogy "2 men standing waist deep in gasoline, one holding with 3 matches, the other with 5 matches" rings true, because it doesn't matter how many matches you have, both will burn to death.

worst part, is that the fallout from that kind of war would have world wide implications, causing an irradiated atmosphere contaminating most of the world resulting is global death the likes of which have never been seen since the extinction of the dinosaurs, with survivors developing all sorts of terrible cancers significantly reducing their lifespans, as well as the possibility of actually changing the climate and inducing an ice age.

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u/Tef-al Dec 01 '22

Fun fact nuclear weapons detonated close to other nuclear weapons disarm those nuclear weapons

Or at least turn them into only dirty bombs from the neutrons forcing fission in the other bomb and brining it below what can become critical. So most nuclear strategy is to set off a fuck ton of big nukes near your opponents nukes before they can fire them. Then you don't have to worry about them

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u/C-c-c-comboBreaker17 Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

So most nuclear strategy is to set off a fuck ton of big nukes near your opponents nukes before they can fire them.

I mean, not really. That plan kind of fails when you have undetectable submarines that can spend years underwater all over the world and loaded with nuclear missiles.

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u/Shock_Vox Dec 01 '22

Exactly right which is why North Korea’s next big investment is a nuclear submarine (fuck food and electricity)

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u/oreoparadox Dec 01 '22

Instead, the Germans were gassing civilian prisoners in death chambers.

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u/SN4FUS Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

He did have a massive stockpile of nerve agents, though. The nazis loved using chemical weapons to commit murder, but they consistently refused to deploy them in battle, despite having the most advanced chemical weapons program in the world. They feared the potential for retaliation in kind

I have two theories about Putin’s nuclear brinkmanship-

  1. he’s still lucid enough to know that there are a myriad of reasons why nuking Ukraine is a bad idea (even selfishly- this was a land grab. Nuking land you want to steal is dumb even by dictator standards) and so it’s all bluster

  2. He’s totally bluffing, and in fact does not have a functional nuclear arsenal at his disposal.

The US nuclear missile command had a scandal some years back where the soldiers were engaging in rampant cheating to pass their qualification tests.

There was a documentary made about how the whole US ICBM system runs on decaying 70’s and 80’s vintage computer technology. Given what we’ve seen of Russia’s actual capabilities, would it surprise anyone to discover that the Russian nuclear arsenal is in even worse condition?

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u/EngineersAnon Dec 01 '22

this was a land grab. Nuking land you want to steal is dumb even by dictator standards

The only flaw there is the appeal to dictators of an "if I can't have it, no one can" mentality...

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u/Quietabandon Dec 01 '22

Putin’s inner circle continues to back him because a collapse of the Russian government will mean their own lives maybe forfeit or at the least their wealth and their freedom.

In a nuclear exchange there lives as they know them, if not literally, are in forfeit. Along with their loved ones. I think the moment Putin orders a first strike is the moment there is a coup.

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u/pipsdontsqueak Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

Well part of the US' ancient infrastructure is security: you can't hack something through the internet that physically can't have ever connected to the internet. Given that these computers were created in tightly controlled domestic labs by domestic companies (edit: with heavy civilian government and military oversight), the chances of an exploit that does not involve being physically in front of the terminal and/or servers is vanishingly small. Given how much technology we use now and how much of that is outsourced coupled with government's reliance on multinational companies for tech, the chances of an exploit are dramatically higher.

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u/Drifter74 Dec 01 '22

Yep all linked via dedicated lines, I mean lines that don't even go through the telecoms. An entire nationwide communication system built specifically for nuclear silos. Couldn't imagine the cost of trying to replace the entire system.

The computer system used to determine what kind of planes were entering Canadian airspace from the artic was built in the 50's and just retired recently.

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u/Worf65 Dec 01 '22

There's actually some articles about this. https://minutemanmissile.com/hics.html the same cables are still in use today and not set to be replaced until around 2030 when the new ICBM system is slated to start phasing out the 1960s Minuteman. That old communication cable is something that's no longer manufactured and one of many things being stretched well beyond its intended service life with few spares.

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u/HereOnASphere Dec 01 '22

It's really difficult to prove that a modern processor doesn't have a back door. You can go with RISC, but then you have to prove that the microcode doesn't have a back door.

If you use a high level language, you have to write the compiler from scratch. The first assembler compiler has to be written in machine language. The first high level compiler has to be written in assembly language.

Subsequent compilers have to only be compiled on "clean" hardware, using the "clean" compiler chain. Anything compiled on other hardware or software can have a back door added to the binary, that will propagate to future generations.

This is just one of the problems with purchasing technology from foreign companies. Even domestic technology is susceptible to contamination.

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u/nwoh Dec 01 '22

Domestic tech isn't just possibly contaminated.

We know about hardware back doors for quite some time

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u/HereOnASphere Dec 01 '22

It might be possible to configure a FPGA to be a clean processor. But I/O channels might be compromised. Also, the programming software might be able to slip something in.

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u/shadowslasher11X Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

He did have a massive stockpile of nerve agents, though. The nazis loved using chemical weapons to commit murder, but they consistently refused to deploy them in battle, despite having the most advanced chemical weapons program in the world. They feared the potential for retaliation in kind

If I'm remembering correctly, it was also because Hitler himself had a really bad mustard gas scare during the First World War when he couldn't get his mask on in time due to his mustache not allowing him to seal it during a gas attack. He saw first hand what gas did to people as well as becoming a victim of it and decided not to use gas for war purposes.

The genocide part of that equation being the irony I guess, but I suppose you have to view them as human to care about that?

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u/SN4FUS Dec 01 '22

Hitler’s personal aversion to using them was a part of the equation, for sure.

But the broader attitude about chemical weapons during the inter-war years (and the war years for that matter) was more or less “boy, nobody better make me use this massive stockpile of chemical weapons I have! But if somebody uses their massive stockpile on me!?! Oh boy, they’re sure gonna get it!”

The difference between chemical weapons and nuclear weapons is that it has been proven time and time again, it’s possible to get away with using them if nobody else in the world cares about the people you use them on. Or if you insist they’re not chemical weapons (white phosphorus, agent orange)

But, the fact that none of the European powers dropped chemical weapons during their bombing raids is an early indicator of the fact that even though M.A.D is objectively insane, it also yields results.

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u/nightwing2000 Dec 01 '22

The other consideration - he may be crazy, but how much of the Russian high command is? Since he's effectively destroyed the Russian armed forces and exposed them as ineffective, do the generals really want to basically provoke the whole world (or even just NATO) into attacking them? The reason that the Ukrainians don't retaliate deep into Russia, and the reason thee West doesn't give them thousand-mile reach missiles, is the fear of provoking this response. Once Russia uses its nuclear arsenal, what does the West have to lose? Are the generals willing to commit suicide just because he is?

(Similar to - the Ukrainians basically degenerated the Donbas to a stalemate before this war, and didn't contest Crimea, since they didn't want to provoke the Russians into backing the separatists with even more firepower. Now, all bets are off - Ukraine won't stop until it recaptures all its territory.)

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u/cryselco Dec 01 '22

I remember asking my late Oma if they knew the war was lost. She said during the early years news of victories were everywhere 24/7. They knew the tide had turned when the radio stopped reporting on anything military.

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u/Apptubrutae Dec 01 '22

No no, clearly it’s just going so well that all Russians do is discuss it and it’s becoming a problem for productivity and socialization.

Putin just wants people to have some conversational variety.

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u/bombayblue Dec 01 '22

This is honestly terrible news. Russian social media was a goldmine for information on the Russian army. Every single Ukrainian army breakthrough was captured in real time. The entire disaster around mobilization was captured in real time. I really don't think a lot of Redditors understand how much information they see which originates from Russian media sources. It's hilarious how often I would get called out by redditors for "regurgitating russian propaganda" for the same information that Ukrainian sources were sharing.

Honestly it's not that hard to cut through the propaganda. If there's anything we learned from this war it's that the Russians were the biggest victims of their own disinformation campaign. If there's any reason discussions are being banned it's because the constant Russian failures were causing the Russian military community to turn against their leaders and it was only a matter of time before they turned against Putin.

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u/The-Brit Dec 01 '22

So they are openly admitting that the whole thing is a shit show by banning any talk about it. Now that it is public even more people will talk about it. Streisand effect in full operation here.

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u/DrDerpberg Dec 01 '22

They admitted it was a shit show when they arrested people for holding up blank pieces of paper at protests, and even for saying pro-"special operation" things. One of those videos of people asking opinions at a protest had someone 100% reciting talking points and then getting hauled off by the police... The lesson is they don't even want you talking about it to say good things, because that means you're talking about it. Don't talk about it, don't think about it, just do as you're told when you're told and nothing else.

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u/mabhatter Dec 01 '22

Iran is locking up 15,000 for protesting... them are amateur numbers for Russia. I hear Siberia is nice this time of year.

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u/Wurm42 Dec 01 '22

Dissidents in Russia don't get sent to Siberia anymore. They "volunteer" to join the army instead and get dropped off at the front in Ukraine.

Otherwise, you're right, Iran isn't in the same league as Russia. It's always Russia and China in the gold medal match for oppressing protestors.

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u/ProfessionalAd6128 Dec 01 '22

In other words Russia isn’t doing well.

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u/CloisteredOyster Dec 01 '22

Tell me you're losing a war without telling me you're losing a war.

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u/XanderTheMander Dec 01 '22

In fact it is now illegal to tell me you're losing the war.

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u/Natomiast Dec 01 '22

In russia is the living itself is illegal.

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u/saladroni Dec 01 '22

In Russia, the illegal living are the friends we made along the way.

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u/ReditSarge Dec 01 '22

There is no living in Russia, just special corruption operations.

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u/Silidistani Dec 01 '22

war

ding ding ding!

You said banned magic word. Congratulations comrade, you win all-expense paid trip to Gulag #792!

Did I say all expense paid? Haha, is joke, we spend nothing, since you are not expect to survive Gulag! Прощай навсегда!

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u/alghiorso Dec 01 '22

They are winning - just in reverse

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u/james42worthy Dec 01 '22

This is outrageous. Where are the armed men who come in to take the protestors away? Where are they? This kind of behavior is never tolerated in Baraqua. You shout like that they put you in jail. Right away. No trial, no nothing. Journalists, we have a special jail for journalists. You are stealing: right to jail. You are playing music too loud: right to jail, right away. Driving too fast: jail. Slow: jail. You are charging too high prices for sweaters, glasses: you right to jail. You undercook fish? Believe it or not, jail. You overcook chicken, also jail. Undercook, overcook. You make an appointment with the dentist and you don't show up, believe it or not, jail, right away. We have the best patients in the world because of jail.

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u/vrenak Dec 01 '22

Probably a lot closer to collapse than we think.

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u/ProfessionalAd6128 Dec 01 '22

We are all anxiously awaiting putins funeral service.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '22

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u/emdave Dec 01 '22

We'd settle for Gaddafi treatment though - which Putin is supposedly paranoid about happening to him...

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u/rathgrith Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

In 4K of course

Not grainy potato vision from 2011

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u/draculas-shaggyballs Dec 01 '22

I recommend the Sony ZV-1 if any potential Russian Putin beheader is in the thread. Easy to handle, great stabilization while wielding a machete on the other hand, you can get cinema quality footage without knowing how to operate a camera basically.

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u/rathgrith Dec 01 '22

Can you recommend a good GoPro attachment to a bayonet?

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '22

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u/chehov Dec 01 '22

Gaddafi first followed by Mussolini please.

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u/fork_yuu Dec 01 '22

Fuck giving him a funeral service, unless it's like a mass pooping on his tombstone

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u/emdave Dec 01 '22

"In an astonishing, yet not completely unexpected turn of events, Moscow has been flooded with Urine, as the entire population of Eastern Europe turns up to piss on Putin's grave."

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u/fork_yuu Dec 01 '22

Man mobilizes all of Europe even from hell, what a martyr

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u/SkrallTheRoamer Dec 01 '22

dig a human sized hole as deep as possible, throw him in and build a public toilet over that hole. once full just cement the top and burry it with dirt and forget where it was.

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u/vrenak Dec 01 '22

Maybe they'll find a nice siberian forest to dump him in.

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u/ProfessionalAd6128 Dec 01 '22

A Ukrainian forest would make that story even better.

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u/nebelfront Dec 01 '22

That would contaminate Ukrainian soil. Dissolve him in acid and dump the goo in the Volga.

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u/NapalmDemon Dec 01 '22

Why not bury him by the elephants foot at Chernobyl then and make both opinions happy?

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u/subliver Dec 01 '22

This is exactly how you end up with a Godzilla Putin, no thank you.

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u/Piccolito Dec 01 '22

sadly Putin funeral wont solve much... there are more radical people there who could take his seat...

the whole regime needs to be changed

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u/tittyfortat1 Dec 01 '22

I have family there. I can't believe it's not already collapsed. The food that's domestically produced has "only" gone up about 50% on average. Imported shit has almost doubled. And sanctioned imported goods like farm/industrial parts are 4x in price, if they can even be found. It's not going well

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u/vrenak Dec 01 '22

Well, as you probably know, the russians are used to being treated like shit, so it takes a lot to get to the tipping point.

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u/zigzagus Dec 01 '22

Even death is not tipping point for russians

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u/epicaglet Dec 01 '22

It's also possible there is no sudden collapse ever. It's entirely possible the damage is already past a tipping point and a gradual decline is already happening.

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u/oalsaker Dec 01 '22

Held together by a shoe string and Putin's willpower.

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u/Scaryclouds Dec 01 '22

Putin's willpower.

More a patronage system that Putin sits atop that could collapse with him removed.

If someone emerges that is able to take Putin's place in that system (or is at least believed by enough people able to), then Putin is gone... albeit that doesn't really solves Russia's government situation. One authoritarian kleptocrat replacing another authoritarian kleptocrat, isn't really an improvement.

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u/WhoBurped Dec 01 '22

It will if the new guy blames the Ukraine war on Putin and removes all troops.

Life in Russia might not change but the war would be over.

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u/oalsaker Dec 01 '22

The largest mafia in the world.

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u/kynde Dec 01 '22

That would be awesome. I'm so tired of their shit. I want this nonsense to end.

I don't really like or want to hate Russia, but right now I'm so fed up with their administration and I vehemently hate what they're doing.

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u/vrenak Dec 01 '22

The sooner the better, but Russia really need to clean house, get rid of all the war supporters so the oppressed ones can get some freedom and get to live a normal quiet life.

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u/Diplomjodler Dec 01 '22

Off to the front with you!

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u/Justicles13 Dec 01 '22

oh no what will their milbloggers talk about now, the fuckin weather?

"today I wake up. more mud. I go back to sleep"

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u/emdave Dec 01 '22

I go back to sleep

"Soon, I go to sleep forever..."

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u/IllustriousNorth338 Dec 01 '22

That's revealing Russian military secrets! An FSB agent is coming to collect you.

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u/Work-Safe-Reddit4450 Dec 01 '22

"Collect" is a funny way to say defenestrate.

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u/Freddies_Mercury Dec 01 '22

They said "public discussion", all these milbloggers know they are under the thumb of Putin and being used by him.

They are allowed to criticise certain aspects of the war as Putin deems them to be central in the public war morale effort. He knows the people don't believe the government so when they see these "independent" bloggers who are overall supporting the war, they believe them.

Not to mention the most prolific milbloggers literally work for state media outlets and are paid directly by the Kremlin.

If they started openly calling for an end to the war they would be halfway to Siberia before you could say "sure death in a barren tundra".

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u/CanAlwaysBeBetter Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

ISW has been reporting there's been infighting between various camps of generals and politicians behind the scenes, there's a chance this could about restricting the bloggers and shifting the balance of power away from their camp for the benefit of others

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u/Freddies_Mercury Dec 01 '22

I would agree with that thinking. The department of defence tried silencing the milbloggers and Putin directly stepped in to stop that.

It's only a tiny snippet of information but could definitely be a sign of a larger power struggle within the government.

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u/_kasten_ Dec 01 '22

what will their milbloggers talk about now

Milbloggers? But what about all those trolls?

I'm guessing they're going to pivot back to "I don't care who's winning -- no, seriously I don't, I really mean it -- but America should definitely stop supporting either side. And also reelect Trump."

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u/EngineersAnon Dec 01 '22

more mud.

Uh-oh, that's information regarding military logistics, Tovarisch.

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u/aceh40 Dec 01 '22

Except on national television

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u/Vertitto Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

like hilarious moment where the presenter couldn't comment on leaving Cherson couse taking any angle would get him jailed ? :D

/context vid

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '22

That is funny, sad, and revolting at the same time.

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u/P8ntBal1551 Dec 01 '22

Oh thank god, the amount of copium that those presenters dish out is just too entertaining. Nothing brightens my day more than watching those guys bend over backwards to justify losing so badly.

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u/Greed-oh Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

Well... the Russian military is already well ahead of this demand.

They clearly haven't talked about strategy or logistics. And on the topic of morale, I heard there "isn't much" to talk about. [Badoomp-tiss!]

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/T0rekO Dec 01 '22

Just few days ago they killed cosplayers of stalker game because they thought they were foreign agents...

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u/U-N-C-L-E Dec 01 '22

I can't believe Radio Free Europe is now a really important news institution again. Crazy times.

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u/Radditbean1 Dec 01 '22

It's an advantage democracy will always have over authoritarianism.

You can't fix your mistakes it you dont admit you've made any.

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u/G_Morgan Dec 01 '22

One of many. You cannot give your soldiers true authority on the field when you are a dictatorship. Too much danger that such soldiers might become rebels.

Liberalism isn't just a nice to have. It has huge structural advantages over other forms of government.

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u/Reep1611 Dec 01 '22

And this is the reason NATO military leadership has a leg up. They can delegate to other people lower in line and trust them to do their stuff. I mean, its not perfect, but much better at adapting and working than the strict top down model. Its also the reason why Russian generals have a tendency to become drone food, because they need to be there.

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u/TricksterPriestJace Dec 01 '22

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Russian Generals officially lost to dronds and snipers were fragged.

The other weakness is not trusting your soldiers is you don't train them to be able to take over. Kill the right Russian commander and a wing of the army will disintegrate. Americans can lose the command staff and it's a slight disruption until someone else 98% as good and two ranks lower takes over.

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u/Anezay Dec 01 '22

As a USMC vet, replacement of command staff with the next guys up might actually improve a lot of units. This applies from the squad level all the way up to the Corps.

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u/BattleHall Dec 01 '22

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Russian Generals officially lost to dronds and snipers were fragged.

There have been rumors recently that some of the mobiks who have been effectively abandoned on the front line by their command have reached out by various means to their Ukrainian counterparts and just given them the coordinates of their officer's quarters, knowing that they can drop a GMLRS on it with little problem. It's fragging by proxy.

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u/Cross33 Dec 01 '22

Yeah, Rome is actually a great historical example. While they were always authoritarian, their problems grew as their grip tightened. Their initial golden age was one of the most tolerant least vicious empires the world had ever seen (keep in mind that's still comparing them to persians and Assyrians so still really bad) but once they started disrespecting others religions and wealth inequality grew rebellions started popping off all the time.

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u/DisappointedQuokka Dec 01 '22

Eh, I'd say it was more when culturally Roman stopped being sufficient. When the Roman state became disinterested in assimilation of foreigners, things truly became unstable, especially in places where military officers or government officials abused their positions to take advantage of the locals.

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u/dkran Dec 01 '22

I’ve also heard that when democracy messes up, it usually pales in comparison to when authoritarian leaders mess up, like the Great Leap Forward, Pol Pots Year Zero, the war in ukraine, chinese suppression.

Democracies seem to shake foundations at times, but authoritarian leaders sink whole countries pretty quick.

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u/Vio_ Dec 01 '22

As long as people are able to participate in them. America alone had people enslaved and put onto reservations and internment camps. Other countries have done the same.

This isn't a whataboutism, but a showcasing that a functional democracy can still have massive failures in human rights.

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u/C-c-c-comboBreaker17 Dec 01 '22

Too many people who forget that, I think. A "democracy" where the majority of people decide to oppress the minority is only a democracy for the favored class.

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u/dkran Dec 01 '22

Agreed, John Adams literally wrote as much.

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u/throwawaybreaks Dec 01 '22

.....

Putin walked to the front of the derailed train, shot the conductor, then returned and closed the blinds.

"The train" he said, "is moving".

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u/OldJames47 Dec 01 '22

That’s why American Exceptionalism is so dangerous. If you believe America is perfect and call anyone who says it could be better a traitor (see Sean Hannity) then you will find yourself rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

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u/anti-DHMO-activist Dec 01 '22

It's a problem with all blind nationalism. A perfect breeding ground for fascism.

There are a couple nations which are going quite over the top in regards to nationalism lately - now that people are forgetting what happened in the 40s, the last witnesses are dying. Forced to repeat history indeed, it seems.

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u/Pushet Dec 01 '22

You can basically see it with anyone who unironically says we need another war to yeet out the "weak" or whatever.

Like how fcking dumb must one person be to actually wish for a senseless war with nothing to gain but the "glory" of death and despair for anyone who is involved.

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u/pimparo0 Dec 01 '22

The people saying that are usually not the ones who will go fight it anyway.

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u/Etzell Dec 01 '22

Same with people salivating about hypothetical apocalypses. Everyone thinks they'll be John Connor, but most of them are just the skull getting stomped by a T-800.

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u/TrainingObligation Dec 01 '22

Yep; one key difference between a patriot and a nationalist is that while both will defend their country, a patriot is more honest and can openly acknowledge their country's faults and less savoury history.

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u/RailRuler Dec 01 '22

In the USSR, it was actually considered a mental illness ("sluggish schizophrenia") to as much as suggest that the USSR could be improved in any way.

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u/Dawrin Dec 01 '22

The HBO Chernobyl documentary (admit it was hollywoodified and not 100% accurate but still illustrates my next point) was a really interesting look at how deeply that “don’t question glorious communist party comrade or gulag for you” attitude was rooted in their society. Refusing to admit fault and learn from your mistakes is a fast track to making increasingly dangerous mistakes. Then you hear about the empty grocery shelves and that defectors to the west thought our grocers were staged… its not surprising that they eventually collapsed.

But it’s important to get the blame here right. It wasn’t an inherent flaw in collectivism, in fact it was an inherent flaw in humans; that admitting fault is painful and difficult to do. It feels better in the moment to brush it off and hide your mistakes. And this is what is so scary about the current state of America. There’s a large swath of the population being manipulated into that kind of thinking, that owning failure is somehow weak.

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u/CILISI_SMITH Dec 01 '22

[Badoomp-tiss!]

Was that HIMARS?

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u/MOOShoooooo Dec 01 '22

Just a grenade dropping from a drone.

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u/tallandlanky Dec 01 '22

HIMAR or M777 please. Those drones are lethal. But if the drone gets you it looks like it hurts the entire time.

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u/hanzoplsswitch Dec 01 '22

Turkish Bayraktar massalah

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u/mycall Dec 01 '22

They also don't last very long.

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u/Vallkyrie Dec 01 '22

And the tank turret cooking off and launching into orbit.

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u/lesser_panjandrum Dec 01 '22

No, private Conscriptovitch was just having a smoke break by the ammo storage. No further questions please.

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u/Echoeversky Dec 01 '22

flashbacks to a Perun video :3

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '22

I bought software from a company that turned out to be a Russian company and the CEO emailed me directly to ask me if I would call Biden and have him take all of the HIMARS out of Ukraine.

Then we just decided to never use the software and block their domain.

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u/Lord_Abort Dec 01 '22

What did you end up telling Biden to do?

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '22

I must have lost his phone number?

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u/Hendlton Dec 01 '22

"You look surprised, Blackadder."

"I certainly am, sir. I didn't realize we had any battle plans."

"Well of course we have! How else do you think the battles are directed?"

"Our battles are directed, sir?"

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u/DancesWithBadgers Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

The state TV guys have been going to pieces of late, so this censorship might be in response to that. There's been talk of defeat and for some reason 'The Hague' and 'wartrials' seems to be a subject of concern. In true Russian style, they've been trying to spread the fear and saying that The Hague was coming for everybody, down to 'the janitor who sweeps the Kremlin'. I doubt that those pursuing the custodial arts have anything to worry about; but state mouthpieces who are openly advocating for genocide do have some cause for panic.

EDIT: link amended.

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u/Soundwave_13 Dec 01 '22

Spoiler: It’s not going well for them at all….

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u/BriskHeartedParadox Dec 01 '22

I gave you the upvote, now scram kid

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u/BookLuvr7 Dec 01 '22

Wow. You know all you need to know about morale if people aren't even allowed to discuss it. Also what people think of how the "training exercise," war is being handled.

How many more people will have to die on both sides for people to realize trying to make Putin happy isn't worth it?

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u/OhioVsEverything Dec 01 '22

At some point you'd have to think someone gets tired of losing money and just deals with it themselves

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u/SunnyWynter Dec 01 '22

This what I don’t get either. Is Putin bulletproof? I’m actually shocked how delusional those people in his inner circle must be to actually follow some senile megalomaniac Tsar cosplayer and destroy their and their children’s future for absolutely nothing.

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u/LostnFoundAgainAgain Dec 01 '22

The people in power with the capabilities to stop Putin in Russia aren't at risk and neither are their children, they continue to earn money all they have to say is "Yes Putin" all day, on the contrary Putin is a paranoid man if somebody tries to do even the slightest of thing and Putin gets a whiff of it then they have just put their entire family at risk.

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u/rowdydionisian Dec 01 '22

I'm willing to bet he kills/siezes the property of the lesser oligarchs, and gives them to his loyal ones. Who knew drinking polonium tea sitting by the window could be so dangerous?

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u/Hautamaki Dec 01 '22

Pretty safe bet considering that's exactly what he's been doing since like 2007....

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u/Kumacyin Dec 01 '22

also, if there is a coup and Putin is killed or arrested and put on trial, everyone in his circle will also be put on trial for aiding and or letting all those crimes happen or at the very least lose all their money and power, maybe be exiled or go into hiding. whether they like it or not, they're in the same ship as Putin

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u/Malachi108 Dec 01 '22

He is very well protected inside his bunker, if that is what you mean. Dictators who live long enough use far more precautions than any sane person could imagine.

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u/mabhatter Dec 01 '22

Well nobody gets closer than those big ass tables he always sits at. And all the meetings have the audiences like 10 meters away from the podium. The guy doesn't get within like 5 meters of another person, ever.

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u/ChaosPancake Dec 01 '22

Stand up alone = death. Discuss overthrowing him with somone else = death. Its game theory in action. You'd all be better off if you oust him, but frist mover is probably worst off. So no first mover.

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u/alppu Dec 01 '22

Let's say you are in that inner circle and speed up Poot's funeral to take place next week.

What is your plan from there? Would you get caught and shot for participating in the assassination? Even if not, do you think you are more useful to the next Tsar dead or alive? What happens to your sources of income and personal security?

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u/Mountainbranch Dec 01 '22

The rules for rulers by CGP Grey explains this perfectly.

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u/fuck_da_haes Dec 01 '22

He has a private army of 200-300k man and FSB willing to do any wet work he wishes. He effectively is bulletproof. Unless there is a popular uprising nothing will stop and uprising is not gonna happen as long as Russians have food in the fridge. That's how low expectations are over there mixed together with apathy no westerner can even fathom.

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u/HappyFamily0131 Dec 01 '22

Putin is not only a megalomaniac, he is also paranoid and powerful. You can be certain that the only people he allows to get close to him are those who he could punish from beyond the grave. "Your daughter is under constant surveillance by my team of trained killers. If you attack me, harm me, even kill me, your daughter will die, slowly." That sort of thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if several of those close to Putin are watching intently for an opportunity to take him out while escaping retaliation. If there were a loud and public withdrawal of support from the oligarchy, to the degree that people begin to seriously doubt any such standing order of Putin's would really be carried out, Putin's days will be numbered.

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u/NightSalut Dec 01 '22

You really have to get Russian history and politics from their point of view. On one hand - if you’re on his side, you’ll be good. Russia had one revolution - one! - in a hundred years time. Russian people do not rise up, they just want to live their lives and as long as the people in power let them have a modicum of decent life they’ll be fine with whoever is in charge - they believe that nothing changes anyway, so what’s the point as long as there’s food in the stores and wages keep coming.

Secondly, he’s amassed such amount of power within his circle that if you go against him, he’ll get your kids and family even if you’re not in Russia. So where do you go once you’ve made your bed with a snake? You have nowhere to go. Even if these people have genuinely changed their opinions, they’ve got nothing to do now.

Third, until he falls, he’s there. No point to change your allegiance for a possibility that isn’t sure and given and could risk your life as well.

Fourth - so many of these people have gotten their kids double passports or their kids live abroad that they may not really care about their own lives as long as they can keep stuffing their pockets. Putin’s alleged adult secret daughter lives in Italy, his own alleged underage kids have supposedly Swiss passports. So many kids from upper echelons live in Europe and mark my cynicism - they’ll be fine doing business after the war, nobody will shun them. Idk why, but I have sneaky suspicion that russian business and money will be all well in the future so they’re just banking on Europeans having short memories and deep pockets.

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u/Trucks325 Dec 01 '22

You are a little misleading with “one revolution”, since revolution is a succesfull uprising. There was a lot of rebellions with different reasons (and pretty much negative outcome). Also I got curious, what kind of people do not want to live their lives while having good enough quality of living?

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u/Nightwhisperdale Dec 01 '22

I know some people who seriously go with things like "But no one is obligated to tell you the truth of the matter and anyway not staying silent or not lying about things like losses would lower morale." and "But without Putin things will become worse immediately!" as arguments. I don't think they really want to realize anything.

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u/djsizematters Dec 01 '22

A lot more Russians will die compared to Ukrainians. One side has precision guided munitions, and the other side has "bring your own tampons to stop the bleeding" policy.

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u/U-N-C-L-E Dec 01 '22

Did you see that picture of a Russian soldier that had taped plastic bottles to his knees to create "knee pads"? Ukraine is fighting literal hobos.

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u/roamingandy Dec 01 '22

It really was intended as a 'training exercise' too.

Putin thought it would be over in 3 days and they'd demonstrate to surrounding former USSR nations how it was impossible to resist so they'd come back into the fold.

Scary thing is how close it was to being over in the 1st 3 days. It was latter that Russia's military ineptitude really began weighing them down and Ukraine's will to mobilize and fight showed their people that they could hold off the worlds '2nd strongest military' and Western nations began pumping in support.

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u/WaitingForNormal Dec 01 '22

You know things are going really well when you outlaw what people can talk about.

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u/Commander_Sune Dec 01 '22

Soon... "Russia bans all discussions." Silence, da. Discussions, nyet!

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u/TeddyBearAlleyMngr Dec 01 '22

To boost the morale we will not talk about the morale.

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u/StanleyOpar Dec 01 '22 edited Dec 01 '22

God can Putin just like…..fucking die already?

We’ve lost so many people due to cancer much faster than him. None of them deserved it as much as he does

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u/m703324 Dec 01 '22

Putin is not the root of the problem though, he is the face of it at this point in history

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '22

[deleted]

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u/robreddity Dec 01 '22

Nah I'm going to keep discussing it publicly, sorry.

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u/DynoMiteDoodle Dec 01 '22

Russia is leaning 100% into Goebbels media control with Stalin style population control now. Crazy.

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u/augustm Dec 01 '22

Stalin didn't have the internet to worry about

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u/DynoMiteDoodle Dec 01 '22

The internet is a double edged sword

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u/absrdbrdtrdmagrdIII Dec 01 '22

I thought I was a crackpot until I found the internet!

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u/Jokong Dec 01 '22

50 Fall Crackpot Recipes

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u/TattoedBacon Dec 01 '22

Cracked pots hate these 10 recipes!!!

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u/OnsetOfMSet Dec 01 '22

The internet is a series of tubes

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u/Mizral Dec 01 '22

It's not like a big truck.

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u/monkeywig11 Dec 01 '22

Well they have no strategy or morale so not much to talk about anyway.

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u/RoboticGreg Dec 01 '22

That's usually a sign things are going well...

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '22

The beatings will continue until morale improves?

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u/Snizzysnootz Dec 01 '22

This reminds me of Trump's COVID response - " Stop testing, we are testing to much. Less positives if we don't test"

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u/BalVal1 Dec 01 '22

Finally we don't have to listen anymore to those idiots on Rossiya 24 express their "opinions"

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u/the_geth Dec 01 '22

What a ridiculous country.

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u/YnotBbrave Dec 01 '22

Russia bans discussion of army strategy, troop morale, and mobilization at army top command, too.

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u/Delnac Dec 01 '22

Holy shit. That's... Does it include milbloggers? Because that's going to be a shitstorm of biblical proportions and a major upheaval of the social dynamics of their war if so.

That's a wonderful bullet they just shot in their foot.

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u/arklenaut Dec 01 '22

Don't mention the war!

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u/712Chandler Dec 01 '22

No one and I mean no one likes you Russia.

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u/Happypappy007 Dec 01 '22

Russia outlaws opinions and discussion. It’s your lucky day to live in the Russian Federation. Shut up, don’t be gay, don’t be a democrat, don’t discuss human rights, don’t complain about shortages. Overthrow dictator Putin.

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u/BLSPRedDeath Dec 01 '22

Thats what a country with a winning army does. Everytime.

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u/say-it-wit-ya-chest Dec 01 '22

Further subjugation and tyranny will continue until morale improves, then it will continue.

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u/mycall Dec 01 '22

"prevent the public from learning crucial information about the Armed Forces."

Or people will start looking at Western news more.

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u/shakesy Dec 01 '22

Tell me you are losing a war without telling me you are losing a war

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u/deadbeef1a4 Dec 01 '22

Definitely what you do when you’re winning